Novosti - Arhiva

[SRV]

Pa jedino sto sad mogu uradit je da ostave tih 50% svima. Jedino fer rjesenje.

Ali su napravili budale od sebe.

[Cuky]

Ali nešto meni nije logično ovdje. Nisam ekspert za F1 motore, ali kako to da se motor lošije hladi ako izgara gorivo, i to u ispušnom sustavu? znači tako što ga jače griju ubiti se on bolje hladi? Po meni je neka logika manje izgaranja=manje topline, više izgaranja=više topline. Meni je ovo sve postalo "too much for me". Di su one godine kad su na vrhu Ferrari, McLaren, Williams i Jordan, kad se vozi sa V10 motorima koji nisu ograničeni, kojih se može koristit koliko ti treba, a ne ove gluposti sada. I onda još da se motor bolje hladi ako jače radi?!

Moram citirat jednu hajdučku: "di su lipi dani, ta stara vrimena..."

[ivan599]

Analiza situacije: Red Bull će pumpanje hladnog zraka od sada plaćati u vidu boljih Mercedesovih motora
http://www.f1racing.com.hr/formula-1/an ... vih-motora" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Ja ne razumijem niti jedne jedine riječi od ovoga o čemu danas svi pričaju. Sad zamislite samo kako je ljudima na tribinama," izjavio je Tony Fernandes, vlasnik Lotusa.

Svjetska automobilistička federacija u petak je maksimalno zakomplicirala situaciju u Formuli 1, i to novom promjenom dijelova tehničkog pravilnika koji se odnose na rad blown difuzora. S obzirom da promjena pogoduje svima koji voze na Renaultovim motorima, FIA je Mercedes kompenzirala povlasticom u vidu dozvole paljenja polovice cilindara za vrijeme kočenja motorom.

Analiza mapa pokazala: Renault mora pumpati hladni zrak kroz motor

Već neko vrijeme znalo se da se od Silverstonea mijenjaju pravila o blown difuzoru, i to na način na koji je FIA-in tehnički delegat, Charlie Whiting objasnio u Valenciji: "Ono što pokušavamo napraviti je to da gas u situacijama kada vozač digne nogu s papučice bude otvoren na maksimalno 10% pri 12 000 i 20% pri 18 000 okretaja. Jedan proizvođač traži povećanje granice iz, čini se, iskrenih razloga."

Proizvođač na kojeg Whiting misli je Renault, koji već neko vrijeme upozorava da će im ispušni ventili izgorjeti ukoliko FIA naredi potpuno zatvaranje gasa. Renault je svoje zahtjeve cijelo vrijeme pravdao sigurnosnim razlogima, premda su mnogi sumnjali u takvo obrazloženje jer otvoreni gas na kočenjima preko difuzora izravno potpomaže aerodinamiku.

FIA je istinitost Renaultovih zahtjeva provjerila analizom mapa iz 2009., kada blown difuzori još nisu ni postojali. Analizom je utvrđeno da su Renaultovi motori i tada imali 28% otvorenog gasa u situacijama s 0 Nm okretnog momenta. Tako je ustanovljeno da su Renaultovi zahtjevi opravdani.

Momčadi su danas, usred prvog slobodnog treninga, informirani o novoj tehničkoj direktivi prema kojoj će svi bolidi s Renaultovim motorima smjeti imati do 50% otvorenog gasa za vrijeme kočenja dok će svi bolidi s Mercedesovim motorima smjeti paliti polovicu cilindara za vrijeme kočenja motorom, zbog čega je naveden razlog rasterećenja kućišta radilice.

Šesta FIA-ina naredba po ovom pitanju

"Renault će na kočenjima imati pola otvorenog gasa i mislim da većina nas nije očekivala da će nas to danas dočekati," izjavio je Martin Whitmarsh. "Pokušavamo shvatiti što nam je za činiti. Red Bull iz sigurnosnih razloga i pouzdanosti navodno cijelo vrijeme mora pumpati. Ja nisam baš upoznat s tim presedanom, ali Charlie bi mogao više znati."

Whitmarsh je naglasio da je FIA po ovom pitanju do sada izdala čak šest naredbi, od kojih je svaka drugačija od prethodne. Rekao je i kako smatra da se pravila trebaju mijenjati između sezona, a ne usred sezone.

Horner FIA-inu odluku smatra vrlo nepravednom

S Whitmarshom je na press konferenciji bio i Christian Horner koji smatra da je FIA Mercedesovim motorima dala veću prednost nego što su je oni dobili pomicanjem limita maksimalnog pritiska ispušnih plinova na 50%.

"Od Valencije smo imali seriju tehničkih direktiva. Mercedes je tvrdio da ima pravo na paljenje cilindara pa im je to omogućeno. Renault je FIA-i svoju poziciju predstavio kako bi ukazao na presedan i svrhu zahtjeva. Pumpanje hladnog zraka neophodno je za rad našeg motora. Nepravedno je što je jednom proizvođaču dozvoljeno paljenje cilindara u posebnim okolnostima. Ali, FIA-i je svakako vrlo, vrlo teško pronaći rješenje ove situacije."

"Od FIA-e očekujemo pravedno reguliranje. Mercedesu i Renaultu dozvoljeni su određeni parametri koji su temeljeni na podacima iz prethodnih sezona, a to je samo po sebi vrlo kompleksna tema. Motori nisu isti; svaki radi na drugačiji način i svi imaju različite kontrolne kodove."

Red Bull će pumpanje od sada plaćati u vidu boljih Mercedesovih motora

Rezultati analize mapa motora od 2010. do danas pokazuju da Red Bull Racing u svoj difuzor nikad nije pumpao više od 45% maksimalnog pritiska ispušnih plinova, tako da im današnja promjena pravilnika zapravo ne donosi ništa što već ranije nisu imali.

Iz sadašnje perspektive, potpuno je jasno da je prijedlog ukidanja blown difuzora od Silverstonea bio potpuno artificijelni akt koji nikad nije zaživio, ali kojeg nije bilo moguće ukinuti samo tako nego tek uz obeštećenje i kompenzaciju prema Mercedesu.

Red Bull će i dalje pumpati kao do sada, ali to će platiti u vidu boljih Mercedesovih motora. Prvo pitanje koje ostaje otvoreno je da li bi Red Bull više izgubio ukidanjem blown difuzora nego što će Mercedesove momčadi sada dobiti. Drugo otvoreno pitanje je i zašto Red Bull zapravo pumpa jer pumpanje zbog performansi teoretski više nema smisla s obzirom da od Valencije ne smiju mijenjati mape motora između kvalifikacija i utrke.

Ferrari i Cosworth su matirani: 20% otvorenog gasa na kočenjima i 0 upaljenih cilindara pri kočenjima motorom.

[F1NAC]

fuj fia fuj fuj

Edit:

Mercedesu dozvoljeno paljenje četiri cilindra za vrijeme kočenja motorom

S obzirom da je Renaultu tako napravljen ustupak, tehnički delegati Svjetske automobilističke federacije smatrali su pravednim dati povlasticu i Mercedesu, i to u vidu dozvole za nastavak paljenja četiri cilindra prilikom kočenja motorom kao bi se smanjilo opterećenje nad kućištem radilice.

Posljednje odluke Svjetske automobilističke federacije znače da će momčadi od ovog vikenda voziti po parcijalno primjenjivom tehničkom pravilniku.

Svemu dodajmo i kako je danas otkriveno da Red Bull u difuzor nikad nije pumpao više od 45% maksimalnog pritiska ispušnih plinova


dakle renault i mercedes... ferrari i cosworth ne postoje... Ukoliko danas budu u prvim redovima McM i RB i tako ti ne gledam vise f1 to je sranje. sad bi bas volio mada sumnjam da ih ferrari s*ebe (pozicijski naravno)

[elder]

To ti je tak, doneseju pravilo onda se za par dana sami sebi zase... u zube. Trebali su se drzati zabrane, a kak budu ostali. Prilagodi se sine, to je formula 1 i nema veze o kome se radi

[ivan599]

fuj fia fuj fuj

Edit:

Mercedesu dozvoljeno paljenje četiri cilindra za vrijeme kočenja motorom

S obzirom da je Renaultu tako napravljen ustupak, tehnički delegati Svjetske automobilističke federacije smatrali su pravednim dati povlasticu i Mercedesu, i to u vidu dozvole za nastavak paljenja četiri cilindra prilikom kočenja motorom kao bi se smanjilo opterećenje nad kućištem radilice.

Posljednje odluke Svjetske automobilističke federacije znače da će momčadi od ovog vikenda voziti po parcijalno primjenjivom tehničkom pravilniku.

Svemu dodajmo i kako je danas otkriveno da Red Bull u difuzor nikad nije pumpao više od 45% maksimalnog pritiska ispušnih plinova


dakle renault i mercedes... ferrari i cosworth ne postoje... Ukoliko danas budu u prvim redovima McM i RB i tako ti ne gledam vise f1 to je sranje. sad bi bas volio mada sumnjam da ih ferrari s*ebe (pozicijski naravno)

Kaj ti nije jasno Renaulti imaju takav motor koji stalno pumpa ( recimo to tako ), a piše i u clanku. Merđo ima nešto u tom pravcu ali nije isto. I sad ic mjenjat motore ili ti ga koncept njihovog rada ti je doslovce ic radit novi motor što je nemoguce ucinit usred sezone. Bar ne sad kad su sve žive zabrane.

Ferrari nije razvijao motor u tom smjeru a ni Cosworth oni imaju možemo rec kad se digne noga s gasa 0 ispuha tako da ih ova pravila niti ne pogađaju ( u smislu izmjena ) niti dobivaju ( da si imali nešto razvijeno pa su u prednosti ). Oni su u zaostatku jer nemaju takav koncept motora pa nemogu ništa ušečarit i nemogu po ovom pitanju ništa dobit.

[F1NAC]

u danasnja doba se ne rade motori jaci nego motori koji sto vise mogu pripomoc aerodinamici ....

[-ferrari-F1-]

To ti je tak, doneseju pravilo onda se za par dana sami sebi zase... u zube. Trebali su se drzati zabrane, a kak budu ostali. Prilagodi se sine, to je formula 1 i nema veze o kome se radi

a da je mclaren u takvoj situaciji, govorio bi drugacije

[Morgan Freeman]

Pa zar vam nije jasno da Rb i Renault lažu, nisu li do prije par dana govorili da će im ovo pravilo uzet do 8 desetinki po krugu?

[F1NAC]

ma sve je ovo u banani definitivno ... jednostavno neka uvale sad nakon silvera pokal klincu i idemo na 2012 .

EDIT:

idemooooooooooooooooo

Red Bull pushes FIA for pit speed limit change.

Red Bull pushes FIA for pit speed limit change.

Apparently the RBRs can't get up to 100km/h by this white line.

In today’s FIA drivers’ briefing at Silverstone there was some discussion about the new pitlane and its entrance, with Sebastian Vettel repeating claims he’d made to the media that the tight righthander is dangerous.

Vettel was keen to see the pitlane speed limit kept at 60km/h for the race, rather than raised to 100km/h, as is the plan.

Christian Horner repeated those fears earlier today: “If it’s conditions like today, if the speed limit goes up to 100km/h I think it could be a tricky down there. Yeah, it’s part of the track, at the end of the day it’s the same for all teams and all drivers, but I think they probably need to have a look at whether we – because the pit lane tapers as well – remain with 100km/h, or whether it would actually be better to look at a 60km/h speed limit.”

Intriguingly it emerged during the briefing that Red Bull has other reasons to seek a reduction in the speed limit. The team’s pit is so close to the end of the pitlane that when they accelerate out of their pit box the drivers cannot get up to 100km/h before the end of the limited zone. And that means they will be at potential time disadvantage at every pit stop.

One source told me that Vettel claimed at the briefing that the RBR cars face a loss of 0.5s at each stop, although an apparently better informed Charlie Whiting told him he’d heard it was closer to 0.29s.

So far the FIA has no plans to cede to RBR’s request…

Red cow really smoked some stuff this weekend. They think they can actually rule them all eh...

[Morgan Freeman]

No još i to! Koji lažovi u tom Red Bullu, ja njih cijelo vrijeme pamtim kao lažove. nek prestanu lagat ovaj napaćen narod.

[ivan599]

Najbolje bi bilo ko u nascaru svi imaju iste morote, šasije jedino kaj možete mrdat je nagib krila i to za par mm a sva sreca samo je jedan pa posla nema puno

No još i to! Koji lažovi u tom Red Bullu, ja njih cijelo vrijeme pamtim kao lažove. nek prestanu lagat ovaj napaćen narod.

Evo nam Mamica na forumu

[F1NAC]

Latest:

@andrewbensonf1
Andrew Benson

A directive is issued on engines and blowing. Think it means Merc get their over-run fuelling but Renault not their 50% blowing. More soon

da mi je vidit Hornera

EDIT:

[Forza]

10% rule: Full analysis

After much expectation on the effect of the 10% off-throttle limit, what transpired over the opening practice sessions brought more confusion than clarification. As practice got under way it transpires that the expected 10% limit was in fact not applied to all teams, nor was the dispensation to the different engine manufacturers communicated clearly to all the others. This brought much confusion to fans and media alike, as well as bringing a heated debate between Martin Whitmarsh and Christian Horner in the Friday press conference. Its been reported that Renault engines have been dispensation to run at up to 50% throttle when the driver is off the throttle pedal, and slightly less well reported that Mercedes engined teams are able to run a fired overrun.

However, the situation was explained to me by several key technical staff in the Silverstone pit lane. The communication and political issues notwithstanding, the status is at least technically clear.

Firstly I gained detail of what the proposed 10% rule actually consisted of. In order to prevent teams using off-throttle engine maps to continue to drive airflow over the diffuser for aerodynamic benefit, the FIA proposed a pair of changes to what’s allowed when the driver comes off the throttle pedal. Firstly the well known 10% limit on the throttle opening, but secondly a ban on injecting fuel into the engine when off the throttle. The intention of this pair of changes was to ban both hot and cold blown engine maps.

Of course this was the FIA proposal; the original date of the Spanish GP was delayed while the teams lobbied their cases to the FIA, giving their reasons why such changes were unworkable given the timescales and restrictions on development.

Now we need to understand what goes on within the engine when a driver lifts off the throttle and the subsequent effect that has on other aspects of the car. Unlike in road cars the driver in an F1 car doesn’t leisurely lift off the throttle and delay the braking phase. Instead the driver may be at near maximum revs, when he will simultaneously lift off the throttle pedal completely and hit the brake pedal hard for the initial downforce aided braking event. During the braking event the gears will be sequentially selected, further peaking revs as the car slows. This sudden closing of the throttles blocks off the inlet to the combustion chamber, but the cylinder will continue to pump up and down at a great rate. This creates huge stresses inside the combustion chamber and the vacuum created will suck air past the piston rings. This will rapidly slow the engine, creating too much engine braking effect, which in turns creates downstream stresses in the drive train and over-brakes the engine. The excessive engine braking effect will make the car nervous on throttle lift off, regardless of any subsequent aerodynamic effect.

So engine manufacturers find different solutions to ease the stresses and braking effect of the driver lifting off the throttle. In the seasons before EBDs there were several different strategies in place, the driver was able to alter overrun setting to tunes the cars handling, and driver switching between teams found the change in overrun settings needed some adjustment to both their driving style and sometimes with the engines settings. So overrun settings were already an issue before EBDs, and many strategies were already outside the intentions f the 10% rule.

Renault have been open and said their engine already runs open throttles on the overrun, this both eases the blow-by and stress issues, it also usefully cooled the exhaust valve, an alternative to using excess fuel to cool the back of the valve. This year the Renault sport are believed to be running as much as 90% open throttle on the overrun. This is what’s best known as cold-blown mapping. Earlier this season and through out free practice at Silverstone, the three Renault engined teams, had a distinctive loud overrun note, which continues briefly as the drivers picked up the throttle out of slow turns. As the throttles are open more than other teams, the induction noise is far greater.

Mercedes HPE, equally have their solution, this is the so called fired-overrun. When the driver lifts off, fuel continues to be injected into the engine and sparked within the combustion chamber. This offsets the engine braking effect created by the engine, giving a smoother transition from on throttle to the overrun when off it. As a result this means there is less engine braking effect. This gives Mercedes the freedom to define braking bias and KERS charging, without having to account for engine braking. Effectively decoupling the engine braking effect from the actual action of the braking system. As with Renault’s pre-EBD mapping Mercedes solution is analogous to the hot blowing mapping. At Silverstone the Mercedes engined teams had a particularly clean overrun sound. Where as Ferrari had far more cracks and pops as the engine slowed.

With both engine manufacturers having long established overrun strategies that have critical impacts on the basic engine design or the braking system, it will be hard to rapidly switch to a very strict overrun mapping as demanded by the 10% rule. Both manufacturers lobbied the FIA to be allowed to retain elements of these old overrun strategies, while still emasculating their current strategies. The FIA have been able to see the mappings used in 2009 through to the current day, as the code is held by the FIA since the advent of the single ECU (SECU). They’ve been able to see the engines have had these long established mappings, but also how they have become more aggressive since the EBD has been developed.
So the FIA relented and although we will commonly call this the 10% rule, the actual throttle will allowed up to 50% and some fuel can still be injected and burnt in the engine. This sounds like a climb down by the FIA and unfair to different engine manufacturers. But the unreported events at Silverstone this afternoon are fairer than the picture being painted by the teams and the media. Its true that Renault were given their greater throttle opening, but also Mercedes were given their fired-overrun, but these dispensations have been given to every engine manufacturer, so Ferrari could have more throttle opening or Cosworth could develop a fired overrun. As I understand you can one but not both of these options, so no 50%-open with a fired-overrun.

Although the communication and timing of these clarifications appears to be wanting, the final rules clarification meets the basic needs of individual engine suppliers, but still maintains parity between the four parties involved. There is no doubt this allows some secondary benefit of greater flow through the diffuser on the overrun, but this is still greatly reduced over what’s been raced already this year. So there will be reduced aero effect and no further arms race in developing these aggressive strategies. After the furore dies we have been left with w reasonable compromise on reducing engine effect on aerodynamics, before the fuller bans comes into effect with periscope exhausts next year.

Craig Scarborough

FIA decision made: ruling reverts to where we were on Thursday. So Mercedes keeps over-run; Renault not allowed 50%.

[F1NAC]

Latest:

@andrewbensonf1
Andrew Benson

A clearly angry Christian Horner is heading to talk to Charlie Whiting after decision not to allow Renault the concession they won on Friday


znaci sad renault ostaje na 10% dok merc i dalje ima hot blow a ostali cold tako nesto sam cuo .. bezveze ili svi jedno ili drugo ..

[elder]

To ti je tak, doneseju pravilo onda se za par dana sami sebi zase... u zube. Trebali su se drzati zabrane, a kak budu ostali. Prilagodi se sine, to je formula 1 i nema veze o kome se radi

a da je mclaren u takvoj situaciji, govorio bi drugacije

Vjeruj mi nebi, gunđal mozda bi. Ali kaj je tu je za sve jednako

[SRV]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ovo opet nije fer, jer profitiraju oni sa Mercedes motorima.

[McLewis]

sta sad ipak su ukinuli renaultu povlasticu 50%???

[elder]

sta sad ipak su ukinuli renaultu povlasticu 50%???

Mislim da nisu

[mcLuke]

Ovo je crno doba formule. Previše zabrana, političkih upravljanja, kazni, safety car starteva. Fuj FIA.

Samo da je fer, pa nek Red bull osvoji 16 utrka u sezoni. Nek ih probaju isporiti druge godine. (slično kao Williams '92, '93, '94)

[Cuky]

To ti je tak, doneseju pravilo onda se za par dana sami sebi zase... u zube. Trebali su se drzati zabrane, a kak budu ostali. Prilagodi se sine, to je formula 1 i nema veze o kome se radi

a da je mclaren u takvoj situaciji, govorio bi drugacije

Vjeruj mi nebi, gunđal mozda bi. Ali kaj je tu je za sve jednako

Ovo boldano ti ni najmanje ne stoji u ovoj situaciji. Kako može biti jednako za sve kad za svakog propisano drukčije?

[Alonso Fernando]

Jesu ,svi su na 10% .

[Alonso-champ]

sad vise nista ne razumijem,mjenjaju odluku svakih 30 minuta....nasli se u krugu i neznaju u koji cosak da se sakriju

[elder]

Ovo boldano ti ni najmanje ne stoji u ovoj situaciji. Kako može biti jednako za sve kad za svakog propisano drukčije?

Joj meni, pa velim da bi za sve trebalo biti jednako, bez obzira na momcad. Na to sam mislil, nis drugo

[Cuky]

OK, izgledalo je kao da si rekao da je trenutno jednako za sve.

Btw, izgleda da se pravda malo igra Webber i Schumacher imaju neke probleme sa motorom. A koji su to ono motori??